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How long before a hive is judged Queenless?

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12:56 am
25 May 2011


B.N.Careful

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Having checked and removed Queen cells in 2 of my hives they both swarmed. One on the 6th May and the other on the 10th May.

The swarms were caught and re-hived and fed syrup; one has raised 5 brood frames of foundation. They seems to be working well and not in a grumpy queen-less fashion. We have avoided inspecting any of the hives in case it prevents them from settling down and in the case of the hives that have swarmed upsetting their Queen making. I am getting concerned that none of the hives are bringing in pollen. Am i expecting too much too early? Have i missed something obvious?

A Queen cell that was removed on 7th April and 'hatched' on the draining board 2 days later has been put in a hive with some swarm stragglers, brood and food [+syrup] and left alone too – as an experiment. This too is in the same condition – ticking over – all comments gratefully accepted.

12:07 pm
25 May 2011


ThePath

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Hi welcome to the forum, well to answer your own question you must go into the hive you suspect is queenless and see. If you cant spot a queen (sometimes hard anyway) then this is one sign. If there is lots of queen cells being made thats another, if there is lots of drone brood being laid then thats another.

It really requires your investigation to find out if the hive is queenless or not.

Why are you concerned the hives are not brining in pollen? I take it your not seeing bees coming in and out the hive? If thats the case then how do you know there is even bees in there?

You say you dont want to disturb their "Queen making". If you captured swarms there should have been a queen in thatcaptured swarm. There should probably still be one in the old hive too? This would require your investigation again to find out. However both hives shouldnt be "queen making" once swarmed. They should each have there own queen, although it doesnt always happen that way. Best to check.

all the best

7:00 pm
25 May 2011


B.N.Careful

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Thank you, Path,

What I am worried about is that, as you say i have 2 swarms presumably with Queens, because there are bees working and in a tolerable mood; but although one at least has plenty of raised comb the Queen has not started laying because the proof would be workers bringing in pollen after nearly 3 weeks.[??] Is this to be expected? All 4 hives [5 counting the 'experiment'] have bees flying in and out but not a spot of pollen.

If the 2 original colonies swarmed despite the queen cells being removed then they would be raising new Queens from eggs left by the swarming Queen [??]- so I suppose I would not be seeing pollen for another week [23 days to raise a fertile Queen plus another 9 days [max] for the larval stage. I have inspected an artificial swarm we made last year and it just made them EXTREMELY tetchy and we finished up with a Queen , badly mated, that is bad layer & produces too many drones and bad tempered workers so i want to avoid THAT problem!

This bee keeping lark is a bit of a tightrope walk isn't it??

Pardon my ignorance and thanks for your time.

4:06 pm
26 May 2011


ThePath

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This post might interest you: http://honeybeekeeping.co……n-rearing/

Yes your quite right around 23 days for the queen to be fertile and start laying. If the hive had to rear a queen from brood then it would have to be fresh brood. If the brood was say a week old then no queens will be raised from it.

Im not sure whats going on with your hives. Why would workers stop brining in pollen? Once a hive has split and swarmed there should still be foragers left in both hives. So I would expect to see pollen going in and out.

Why not pick a good sunny day and go in around lunchtime and have a good look. We can sit and debate all we like but nothing will beat going into the hive for a poke around. That way you will be able to see if any pollen is being stored, if there is brood now etc etc.

A crazy thought just occurred. Where are your hives? You dont live in a desert do you wink

Beekeeping is tough but sooo rewarding. So much to learn too.

8:52 pm
28 May 2011


B.N.Careful

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Thanking you again Path,

We live on Worcestershire/Gloucestershire border – and you are right – it is getting a bit like a desert!

I went into both the captured swarms colonies yesterday. On one frame I found plenty of eggs [horizontal]. This colony is our original Queen, we call her 'Old Faithful' as she is so co-operative we wonder sometimes if she is training us! She produced 140 lbs honey last year and because she is 2 years old now we are desperately trying to keep her line going and make increase from her.

The other captured swarm resulted from our first artificial Swarm effort made a year ago with frames from 'Old faithful'. By interfering too much [opening the hive to check] we think we have produced a badly mated Queen. Christened Brunhilda, she produces a lot of drone; a bad laying pattern and workers that can be very tetchy but about 70 lbs of honey last year. This swarm is now in a Nuc has raised comb and is also just coming into lay. Both Queens now laying after a fortnight of being re-homed. So that’s a relief!

Today we have inspected the hive that Brunhilda vacated. It is well populated, plenty of honey and pollen stores. There were 2 queen cups, 2 unopened Queen [swarm] cells and one supersedure cell in the middle of one of the frames. Brunhilda swarmed on 10th May although we removed 2 swarm cells 3 days previously.

What do you think is the best course of action? The uncapped supesedure cell contained a larva that was about 1/3 full size. Should we remove the 2 capped queen swarm cells or just let them get on with it and let nature take its course? Which cell , if any, would produce the best Queen?

Yes, keeping bees is fascinating – it has opened the the insect world up to me as well.

12:12 pm
30 May 2011


ThePath

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Some good news there then.

OK so Brunhilda's vacated hive is definitely queenless you think? Well the way I see it you have two options:

1. Let nature take its course like you say, the girls will know what they are doing. Well you certainly dont want to remove the capped queen cells as these are your best shot. I would be worried about the uncapped ones as they should be capped on day 7-8. So if she swarmed on the 10th then all the queen cells should really be capped by now. It cant be emerging as you say its too small. Dont think that one will make it.

2. The second option, and perhaps a slightly more risky one is to remove all Brunhilda's queen cells and to take some fresh brood from Old Faithful's hive and stick it in Brunhilda's old hive. The bees should recognise they have no queen cells and should flood some of Old Faithful's cells with Royal Jelly (if they have any left they seem to be using a lot) and raise queens from her brood.

If it was me Id keep it simple and stick to number one above. Let nature take its course. Then try and raise some queens from Old Faithful this year and replace the grumpy queens you dont want.

11:54 am
7 June 2011


B.N.Careful

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Just an update for you Path….

We have inspected the Hive Old Faithful left 28 days ago. It had two open Queen Cells and I looked very hard but could not find a single egg. We have put a frame of eggs and brood from Old Faith in the centre of the brood and we await developments.

Brunhilda’s ex colony appears to have a drone laying Queen and as there are only are few drone cells which and clustered in 4s 10s, very hit and miss – I think it may be a laying worker [?]. I inspected this hive yesterday which is also 28 days after it swarmed. There were 2 play cups and some areas of HUGE empty clean comb which i presume is also vacated drone cell. The bees were in full attack mode and the light was bad but the cells I did inspect had no eggs in them. I should have inspected further but when you have bees stinging through your suit you get a very strong impulse to close up and go away!!Yell

After some research I am thinking of emptying the Hive out say about 50 yds away – rounding up the ones that make it back to the stand and using newspaper to unite them with Brunhilda's new hive? Ted Hooper’s book suggests putting them in front of another hive; Old Faith's is about 3 or 4 feet away from their stand.

Have you any thoughts?

4:24 pm
8 June 2011


ThePath

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Post edited 4:26 pm – 8 June 2011 by The Path


Thanks for the update.

I think you are right about the drone laying worker. This will often happen when the queen leaves or dies suddenly leaving no fresh brood for the workers to superseed.

So yes if the hive numbers are small then uniting them is a good option, see this page: http://honeybeekeeping.co……g-bees.php. Did you say that you put some of Old Faithfuls fresh brood into the queenless (drone queen) hive? If so this could work, hopefully they make some queens from the brood.

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